[Shoshinryu]

freshdoughstory, on 30 March 2011 - 11:29 AM, said:

If you think CS dark weapons are particularly broken, then you've probably had some trouble interpreting the translated gibberish on the japanese wiki. The damage reduction % is reduction to rebound damage. Not damage that you sustain by other players. The LP absorption sounds powerful at first, but don't forget the rebound damage will still be present to negate some of the absorption.

Also, people have a tendency to immediately say CS items are overpowered before they give it proper thought. Or they jump to conclusions when they get owned by someone in muldia. I pvp daily in muldia, and being a sniper myself, i pay extra attention to other archers to compare my strength. Now, i can list all of the active muldia archers that "hit like a truck." Out of the 6 snipers/hunters that immediately comes to mind, only 1 of them could be considered a regular CSer. Also, how are you able to make the assumption that their weapons are +7? There's no visible evidence if a weapon is +1-7. Only at +8 can you make a tell. Jumping to conclusions much?

Also, you are wrong about muldia weapons not being able to compete. I'm in the works of replacing my +6 ice bow (achieved and obtained through in game gold) with a guardian bow. Which, when done will do a lot more damage than my current ice bow even at just +4.

First and foremost, let me explain how the dark bow works.

At +7, and people WILL have +7 dark bows, I guarantee it, this is how it will work:

26% Damage Recoil Reduction. Normally with darkness aura you take half of the aura damage back as a hit to yourself. With a 26% reduction that that recoil, it will be 37% of aura damage done taken back as recoil. So, if you hit a 100 with aura damage, you will take 37 damage to yourself.

15% chance to Weaken. This is self-explanatory more or less. I chance to weaken that is almost double the chance to freeze on ice bow, so I know it will hit a lot since I freeze a lot.

A 100% chance to absorb 10% of the damage you do as regained life points. This means if you do 1000 damage, you will regain 10% of that, or 100 health back.

Also, a 16% added resistance to frost.

All in all, what this means is that the darkness bow has a good chance of being OP. Why? Let's test this scenario:

I hit a player for 800 normal damage and 70 darkness aura damage with a +7 darkness bow. I will take ~26 damage as recoil, and gain 80 damage from life absorption. This will come out to an added 54 life with above attack. I will also have a chance to weaken my opponent with this attack. This means that with each attack I will gain life no matter what, and I will be doing massive damage to my opponent.

Secondly.... You are completely wrong about +7 weapons not being noticable. It is at +7 that CS weapons start to glow, not +8. Any glowing weapons you see are +7 or higher cash shop weapons. Jumping to incorrect conclusions much?

And people aren't so much saying that damage-wise Muldia weapons can't compete, it's more of special ability wise they cannot. There is no special ability on the Guardian Bow. All you will get by making that +6-7 is added damage, which is nice... However, as stated above with Ice bow and Darkness bow you have skills like Weaken and Freeze, which make all the difference in PvP.

[Rynaga]

even if i won't ever have cs weapon, the only thing i can hope for is that my nation's players have a lot of cs weapons than the enemy nations >.>. it all boils down to having a good team in pvp. someone may have a +7 haxxed dark bow with weaker pvp teamates, but if the opposing team has like, 2 clerics, an enchanter and some good tanks/dps, they won't always win even with their +7 weapon. you may feel cool being the one to kill people fast, but at the end of the day, you are sharing honor points with your teammates. (unless you like to solo pvp, then that's a different story).

[freshdoughstory]

Shoshinryu, on 30 March 2011 - 07:53 PM, said:

First and foremost, let me explain how the dark bow works.

At +7, and people WILL have +7 dark bows, I guarantee it, this is how it will work:

26% Damage Recoil Reduction. Normally with darkness aura you take half of the aura damage back as a hit to yourself. With a 26% reduction that that recoil, it will be 37% of aura damage done taken back as recoil. So, if you hit a 100 with aura damage, you will take 37 damage to yourself.

15% chance to Weaken. This is self-explanatory more or less. I chance to weaken that is almost double the chance to freeze on ice bow, so I know it will hit a lot since I freeze a lot.

A 100% chance to absorb 10% of the damage you do as regained life points. This means if you do 1000 damage, you will regain 10% of that, or 100 health back.

Also, a 16% added resistance to frost.

All in all, what this means is that the darkness bow has a good chance of being OP. Why? Let's test this scenario:

I hit a player for 800 normal damage and 70 darkness aura damage with a +7 darkness bow. I will take ~26 damage as recoil, and gain 80 damage from life absorption. This will come out to an added 54 life with above attack. I will also have a chance to weaken my opponent with this attack. This means that with each attack I will gain life no matter what, and I will be doing massive damage to my opponent.

Secondly.... You are completely wrong about +7 weapons not being noticable. It is at +7 that CS weapons start to glow, not +8. Any glowing weapons you see are +7 or higher cash shop weapons. Jumping to incorrect conclusions much?

And people aren't so much saying that damage-wise Muldia weapons can't compete, it's more of special ability wise they cannot. There is no special ability on the Guardian Bow. All you will get by making that +6-7 is added damage, which is nice... However, as stated above with Ice bow and Darkness bow you have skills like Weaken and Freeze, which make all the difference in PvP.

Yes, you didn't need to explain dark bow to me. I plainly know how it works. Also, you don't do 800 normal attack damage. I've fought you before and you're not that strong. You did ~200-300 normal damage to me. So at +7 you'll be absorbing 20-30 hp and take "~26" recoil damage. It would be OP if most people could consistently hit those high numbers, but that's not the case. Nice job "testing" your scenario by making up a bunch of fake exaggerated numbers. If someone could do 800 damage NORMAL attacks then i think there's a bigger problem than 10% absorption here.

Guardian bow can have 3 slots...that leaves a lot of potential. I'm just going to leave that at that as i don't want others getting any ideas.

This post has been edited by freshdoughstory: 30 March 2011 - 11:30 PM

[kei]

well, to be fair, as an assassin, i find jamadhar to be far better than cs claws. am not explaining more. go figure.

[Shoshinryu]

freshdoughstory, on 31 March 2011 - 12:00 AM, said:

Yes, you didn't need to explain dark bow to me. I plainly know how it works. Also, you don't do 800 normal attack damage. I've fought you before and you're not that strong. You did ~200-300 normal damage to me. So at +7 you'll be absorbing 20-30 hp and take "~26" recoil damage. It would be OP if most people could consistently hit those high numbers, but that's not the case. Nice job "testing" your scenario by making up a bunch of fake exaggerated numbers. If someone could do 800 damage NORMAL attacks then i think there's a bigger problem than 10% absorption here.

Guardian bow can have 3 slots...that leaves a lot of potential. I'm just going to leave that at that as i don't want others getting any ideas.

No shenanigans I don't do that much damage to another archer. There's a reason I used the words scenario, and if you're half the archer you claim to be you know damn well that you can hit almost that much damage if you have Sniper Nest and buffs active. If you've never experienced it, you're doing something wrong.

Also, even if you get Guardian Bow to 3 slots and throw a Dualsoul in the middle to double the effects of the souls adjacent to it (and you're not the first person to think of that, it's widely known, so don't bother trying to be all secretive about it), you're still not going to get that much power out of it. There's only one truly effective soul combo I see with that anyway that might make it good, and it still won't make it more powerful than CS bows of the same enhancement.

And I love how you conveniently leave out your ignorance of the +7 weapon indication, lol.....

P.S.- What's your character name? I'll happily meet you in Muldia or El Behd anytime for a 1v1 battle and we'll see about that "not that strong" statement, sniper to sniper.

[freshdoughstory]

Shoshinryu, on 31 March 2011 - 03:32 AM, said:

No shenanigans I don't do that much damage to another archer. There's a reason I used the words scenario, and if you're half the archer you claim to be you know damn well that you can hit almost that much damage if you have Sniper Nest and buffs active. If you've never experienced it, you're doing something wrong.

Also, even if you get Guardian Bow to 3 slots and throw a Dualsoul in the middle to double the effects of the souls adjacent to it (and you're not the first person to think of that, it's widely known, so don't bother trying to be all secretive about it), you're still not going to get that much power out of it. There's only one truly effective soul combo I see with that anyway that might make it good, and it still won't make it more powerful than CS bows of the same enhancement.

And I love how you conveniently leave out your ignorance of the +7 weapon indication, lol.....

P.S.- What's your character name? I'll happily meet you in Muldia or El Behd anytime for a 1v1 battle and we'll see about that "not that strong" statement, sniper to sniper.

Sure, it's not hard to hit 800+ damage in certain situations. The other day i surprised myself by hitting a 1.7k + ~300 aura damage using flame arrow on some sort of lvl 50 warrior while i was fully buffed (no sniper nest) and he wasn't. But i'm not going to go around saying i do 1.7k normal damage. You can easily do 1k+ damage with skills or back attack, or if you're party buffed going up against someone un-partied with no buffs. But up against another well lined up party with full buffs you won't be doing 800 damage consistently. Not even against mages. Also, when i said you were not that strong, i was saying you don't do 800 damage normal attacks. That's not the same as saying you're weak. Earlier when i said "6 archers that can hit like a truck," you were one of the 6 i had in mind.

Dual soul is just part of what makes 3 slot muldia weapon good. If you look at the damage calculations, you'll see that a lot of it is based on % of base weapon power. That makes it really easy to make a muldia weapon more powerful than a CS item power wise since a blacksmith upgraded weapon would have much higher base power than any of the CS items. Then you if you want, you can either add more power by going savage/resolute, dual, savage/resolute, or choose whatever debuff effects you want like barbed soul, dual, weakness. The latter would give you a powerful weapon damage wise, with the added effects of 10% slow and 8% weakness. That is certainly competing against CS imo.

This post has been edited by freshdoughstory: 31 March 2011 - 08:47 AM

[BLACKLISTED-]

LOL who's the noob that thought CS weps start glowing at +8.

[Sho Yukimura]

I guess this guy never killed any boss.

well,i have a CS lance,and i have the Knight Lance,drop from a muldia boss.
And the Knight Lance is a way better than any current cash shop item.

+10% atk power,and +5% defense is just too good.

[freshdoughstory]

BLACKLISTED-, on 31 March 2011 - 11:20 AM, said:

LOL who's the noob that thought CS weps start glowing at +8.

That would be me. But as an excuse, i play on low settings so i don't see any glows to begin with.

[SogiYa]

ya don't say ... I was beginning to doubt my perspective that PS was on a fast moving platform to the fire pit of P2W ( only with no portal gun) ... heh, oh well.

maybe Master of Epic will turn out different, but at least AO will get a couple of pumps off the money well with this ... sad but true fact is that P2W does pay off for the host. despite my disgust at P2W tactics, I would be sad if AO closed down like it seemed like it was going to back in the fall.

*shrug*

[MWD78]

Shoshinryu, on 31 March 2011 - 06:32 AM, said:

There's only one truly effective soul combo I see with that anyway that might make it good, and it still won't make it more powerful than CS bows of the same enhancement.

um...about that Sho...i have something you may want to look at...

[SanctumSeven]

Here's the thing on the other side of this argument. All of the things in the cash shop end up sold in booths for the price of a couple of really good in-game drops (in the case of a +7 fire weapon, 7 really good in game drops). Take a hedgehog soul, for example, and sell it for 1 million gold in a booth. You can then turn around and buy a +3 or +4 fire weapon. It's no +7, but it does the trick. And that's assuming you completely refuse to give Atlus Online any money. It's possible to get as geared as the cash shoppers without using the cash shop. I'm a level 50 juggernaut, using the attack power 103 Broadsword A, and archers with +7 bows fall before the fury of my sword. The only CS items I use are my salamander ring, purchased for a reasonable 350k gold in game, and a passionate cloak which was given to me by a guild member, who got it for free by participating in an in-game event. It's not necessicary to pay irl money to get the items you want, just takes more farming than you want to do.

[Coybo]

I totally agree with duffin. Feels odd saying that but its true imo. Also if u dont think this game is pay2win then ur outta ur mind. I have yet to buy one thing from the cash shop. And having a full time career also make's it a fight to keep up with everyone else. Only thing i would suggest is lowering the prices or something idk. Dont take me wrong im not complaining about it but it is kinda wack. 20 bucks for one item.

[BLACKLISTED-]

Coybo, on 12 April 2011 - 08:43 AM, said:

I totally agree with duffin. Feels odd saying that but its true imo. Also if u dont think this game is pay2win then ur outta ur mind. I have yet to buy one thing from the cash shop. And having a full time career also make's it a fight to keep up with everyone else. Only thing i would suggest is lowering the prices or something idk. Dont take me wrong im not complaining about it but it is kinda wack. 20 bucks for one item.

Well you saying that with your career you fall behind means you wouldn't be able to keep up with or without a cash shop. Players who can play 24/7 are naturally going to be ahead of the game compared to those who only play an hour or two a day. If you can't put in time to earn CS items in game, then of course you are going to have to pay 2 win.

[Coybo]

BLACKLISTED-, on 12 April 2011 - 10:43 AM, said:

Well you saying that with your career you fall behind means you wouldn't be able to keep up with or without a cash shop. Players who can play 24/7 are naturally going to be ahead of the game compared to those who only play an hour or two a day. If you can't put in time to earn CS items in game, then of course you are going to have to pay 2 win.

blah blah blah. thats all u said black. my whole point was for prices to be lower or just a lil better drop rates. so might i suggest something to you blacklisted???? STFUYNIPYA. ~burn~

[BLACKLISTED-]

Coybo, on 12 April 2011 - 10:48 AM, said:

blah blah blah. thats all u said black. my whole point was for prices to be lower or just a lil better drop rates. so might i suggest something to you blacklisted???? STFUYNIPYA. ~burn~

Whatever you think your point was, what you said was "If you don't think this game is pay2win then your out of your mind." And sorry I don't understand your abbreviations but gratz if that was a good burn on me

[Vamboge]

You can still buy stuff off of other players so its not entirely cash shop based. This game is also Skill based there are lots of people who payed hundreds and not thousands on this game and are still really quite harmless. IMO this game is 60% skill 40% gear.

[haleyomega]

It definitely appears at first glance that a lot of cash shop weapons are OP, but you have to take a look at how difficult that is. It's not a matter of spending $20 just to get a +7 fire/ice/anything other element weapon. You have to try your luck at gacha, and you can spend a lot of money on that without any good rewards. And the cash shop weapons aren't even that good until they have the upgrades to them. Not to mention, you can buy a clean fire weapon now for anywhere between 400 to 700K (if you browse booths often enough) and a fortune hammer for anywhere between 750K to one million. Use that fortune hammer on that fire weapon to get it to plus 5, and you've already unlocked the potential to burn enemies. A total of 1.7 million if you're going with the highest price-yeah if you play enough, it's not that hard to achieve. There is no way that you actually have to spend real life money in order to win. It might be a little easier to spend real life money than in game money in certain instances, but then I remind you once more, gacha rates can be the worst thing ever. You can spend $40 and get little more than victory potions. On top of that, as annoying as they may be, and as little reward as they may seem to yield, there is always the option of doing surveys for crowns. I'm aware that it pales in comparison to buying crowns, but it's an option that exists.

Another sidenote: sometimes people who are geared out fall first simply because wearing a bunch of CS items = target.

Also, I agree with Vam, having great gear doesn't ensure that you're going to be a good player. You've got to have skill and knowledge pertaining to your character.

[BLACKLISTED-]

haleyomega, on 12 April 2011 - 09:39 PM, said:

It definitely appears at first glance that a lot of cash shop weapons are OP, but you have to take a look at how difficult that is. It's not a matter of spending $20 just to get a +7 fire/ice/anything other element weapon. You have to try your luck at gacha, and you can spend a lot of money on that without any good rewards. And the cash shop weapons aren't even that good until they have the upgrades to them. Not to mention, you can buy a clean fire weapon now for anywhere between 400 to 700K (if you browse booths often enough) and a fortune hammer for anywhere between 750K to one million. Use that fortune hammer on that fire weapon to get it to plus 5, and you've already unlocked the potential to burn enemies. A total of 1.7 million if you're going with the highest price-yeah if you play enough, it's not that hard to achieve. There is no way that you actually have to spend real life money in order to win. It might be a little easier to spend real life money than in game money in certain instances, but then I remind you once more, gacha rates can be the worst thing ever. You can spend $40 and get little more than victory potions. On top of that, as annoying as they may be, and as little reward as they may seem to yield, there is always the option of doing surveys for crowns. I'm aware that it pales in comparison to buying crowns, but it's an option that exists.

Another sidenote: sometimes people who are geared out fall first simply because wearing a bunch of CS items = target.

Also, I agree with Vam, having great gear doesn't ensure that you're going to be a good player. You've got to have skill and knowledge pertaining to your character.

Fortune Hammer doesnt automatically give you +5. You would need 5 fortune hammers to get +5 from a clean wep.

[haleyomega]

BLACKLISTED-, on 13 April 2011 - 06:03 AM, said:

Fortune Hammer doesnt automatically give you +5. You would need 5 fortune hammers to get +5 from a clean wep.

My bad, wrote that in a hurry and didn't realize what I said. Therefore, my calculations are also wrong and it would cost a great deal more in-game money, or a combination of in-game money plus luck to achieve a plus 5 weapon. Regardless, I hold to my argument that this isn't a pay to win game.